MEK OP Game Night: Playtesting

Advancing the Green Pass campaign clock by another month resulted in no random incursions by enemy armies, so the session broke out into two groups: a 40K group with most of the experienced players, and a "Medieval Aegis" playtest with some new players. I was in the playtest group.

Medieval Aegis is a tactical man-to-man combat system created by Richard "Vox" Scott, using a hex map and lots of dice. We each created characters using a simple point-buy system that Vox made up on the spot, for a four-way battle. Because movement is slow in this system, the free-for-all pretty quickly devolved into two battles on each end of the map.

Some comments about the system:

• This is a very dice-heavy system. An average attack involves rolling to attack, rolling for damage, and then counter-rolling for damage-soak. Each of the latter two rolls can involve a half-dozen different dice. Higher quality armor/weapons use better dice, so a standard mathematical operation might look like "Attacker rolls 3d10 + 2d12 + 5, then defender subtracts 5d8 + 2, and applies the difference as lost health."
• Crits and fumbles are quite common in this system (generally on a 1 or a 6, rolling something like 1d6), and tend to influence the flow of combat in unpredictable ways. As an obvious example, the first round of engagement between me and Vox involved both of our archers making failed attacks and dropping our bows for the following round.
• Depending on character build choices, it's not difficult to create a stalemate situation where both sides have lots of armor and only weak weapons that can't inflict damage through it. This creates situations where each side pickets the other, hoping for a crit.
• There's no magic in this world, which removes some of the rock-paper-scissors dynamic of fantasy combat. Nothing beats high-end armor, which stops arrows just as well as swords.
• The point-buy method for leveling up used fairly solid principles of diminishing returns to make it unappealing to dump too many points into one character.
• Archers seem very good, given how many steps it takes to make contact with enemies. I suspect a force of long-range mobile archers with minimal armor would be the quickest way to win. That being said, moderately armored archers can beat unarmored ones, so there's still a difficult optimization to be performed around finding how much armor an archer needs.
• Some rules (like horseback riding) seem minimally implemented, and will probably require more explanation.
• There's no element of dodging attacks at all, aside from a single specialized skill. In particular, wearing lighter armor or having higher agility/dexterity has no benefit in terms of reducing a foe's attack probabilities.

Overall the rules are short, at about 10 pages. Despite being a medieval game, the style of play actually reminded me more of an age-of-sail wargame, with lots of slow maneuvering at range using turn-radius restrictions and a limited firing arc. I like that style of play in warship (and for sci-fi games, starship) battles and maybe it has some logic for heavy knights, but it feels thematically odd to use it for light skirmishers in leather jerkins. I feel like it would be improved by doubling all movement rates to help melee combatants get through the gantlet of arrow fire and create a sense of flow. Even in the current incarnation, though, I would be willing to play again.

Magic Item Creation In ACKS

The Adventurer Conqueror King System makes the assumption that magic items should be rare and exceedingly difficult to make. There are a number of different aspects to magic item creation that all need to be considered at once. Here's an outline of the process from start to finish.

A general data table for costs, times, required spells, and suggested formula components can be found at this link. (I haven't had time to suggest recommended components for all the miscellaneous items.)

Step 1: Having a qualified researcher
Generally, any arcane or divine caster will be able to craft some kind of items at some point. For "full" casters (with spell advancement equal to a mage or cleric), the threshold levels are usually 5th level for making potions and scrolls, and 9th level for other magic items. At 11th level, full casters learn to create "ritual spells", powerful high-level spells (i.e., wish or resurrection) that can only be cast after being "created" into a magic item (usually a scroll or ring).

Arcane casters can create any item without restriction, unless the class description says otherwise. Divine casters can only make items they could personally use (i.e., a bladedancer can't wear plate armor, and so can't create plate +1).

Step 2: Having an appropriate facility
Magical items (including ritual spell items) are created in a workshop, a non-military structure that is usually located in a city or keep. The workshop must have a value of at least 4000 gp to create basic items that replicate the effects of a 1st level spell. For every additional spell level, another 2000 gp must be invested. For example, a workshop worth 4000 + 6000 = 10,000 gp could create magic items with spell effects equivalent to 1 + 3 = 4th level spells.

If a workshop exceeds this minimum by at least 10,000 gp, it gets a +1 bonus to the item creation dice throw, up to a maximum of +3. So a 4000 + 30,000 = 34,000 gp workshop would get a +3, but only when creating an item that duplicates a 1st level spell.

Step 3: Knowing necessary spells, or having a formula/sample
With a few exceptions, magic items typically reproduce spell effects. To create any magic item that reproduces a spell, a researcher must be able to cast that spell. Some items (particularly staves) reproduce multiple spells at once, requiring the caster to know all the necessary spells. For divine casters, this sometimes requires the use of the apostasy proficiency, to gain access to otherwise forbidden spells.

An alternative method (really the best one!) is to have a formula or sample to work from. A formula is a recipe for making the item. A sample is an existing example of the item. With access to either, it becomes unnecessary to have the required spells. A sample/formula also reduces the cost, time, and difficulty level of the creation process, cutting each of these in half!

Note that once you make an item once, you have an existing sample for any additional versions of the same item you want to make. This situation also applies if you have a wand that has used up its charges, and you want to recharge it.

Step 4: Paying research costs
Research is generally expensive. Duplicating a spell of level N costs 500*N gp, just for a single use item like a scroll. If an item is to be used multiple times, the cost will be increased by a further multiple. An "at will" item that can cast every round costs 50 times this base value!

It is permissible to add "precious materials" (gems, rare metals, etc) to the cost of research, to make a higher-quality item. For every 10,000 gp of additional precious materials, the dice roll modifier to create the item is improved by +1. This extra materials cost can't exceed the base cost of the item (before the halving for a sample/formula). For example, making a 35,000 suit of plate +1 could be enhanced by up to 30,000 gp of precious materials, giving a +3 to the dice roll.

Step 5: Acquiring magical components or divine power
A researchers needs special components from magical sources to make a magical item, even a scroll. Typically these are taken from foes, wild animals, or thematically appropriate monsters. For example, a ring of fire resistance might require the scales of a "flame salamander", a creature from the elemental plane of fire.

The quantity of components depends on the base cost of the item (before modifications for formula/sample or precious materials). Typically the components must come from a number of monsters with total experience equal to the base cost of the item. So a ring of fire resistance (costing 1000 gp) could be created from the scales of a single flame salamander, since this creature is worth 1,100 experience points. On the other hand, an item made from weak creatures (like giant rats) might require components from hundreds of different individual weak creatures!

Generally, hunting down all these creatures is very time consuming. Many mages prefer to build "dungeons", underground complexes that attract wandering monsters. To harvest body parts from an unwilling monster from his dungeon, a mage must be able to physically defeat that monster in combat or subdue it in some other clever way. Players should be prepared to demonstrate this capability upon request! Some mages will hire adventurers to do this dirty work for them, to the confusion of the adventurers. ("What does this wizard want with 100 giant rat spleens?!")

Note that once you start using a given formula, you can't switch to a new formula and still get the usual cost/time bonus. For example, if you started trying to make your rings with a formula that used hellhound hides instead of flame salamander scales, you'd have to successfully make another ring before you could apply the formula-based discount. (The new formula rings would still work the same way, though.)

As an alternative to magical components, every kingdom with an established church or faith slowly generates "divine power" based on the piety of the population. A high-morale domain population generates more divine power; the exact rate is calculated using a table in the rules. With average morale, a domain gets 4 divine power for every 10 families. Typically divine power is enough to slowly create a few weaker items like potions, but trying to use it to make more valuable items would be either very slow or require an enormous population. Divine power cannot be saved up from week to week, it must be spent out as the item is created. Each point of divine power replaces one xp of monster parts, on a one for one basis.

Step 6: Time
Magical items take time to complete. The standard rate is 1 week per spell level, for a single use item. Multi-use items can take much longer.

Step 7: A final roll for success
Doing all of the above doesn't actually get you an item, just a chance to roll to see if you can make one! This is based on the caster's effective level; a 9th level caster has a base target of 8+ to succeed, only slightly better than 50%. The target is increased by the spell-level of the item being made. The roll itself is modified by the INT bonus, certain proficiencies, and any of the above modifiers for workshop and precious material quality. (That is, all these would reduce the target.) A throw of 1-3 on a d20 is always a failure, regardless of any bonuses.

For example, a ring of fire resistance being made by a 9th level mage would have a target of 8+2, or 10. If the mage had an INT bonus of +2 and 2 ranks of magical engineering proficiency, this target would reduce down to 6. This would amount to a 75% chance of successfully making the ring.

MEK OP Game Night: Gun To A Knife Fight

Last night's exploration session (the caves and the river forest) ended up having a substantially larger set of characters than I anticipated. As I realized in advance that some people wanted to bring along multiple heroes, I suggested breaking the party into two teams and running them each separately. Even after the division, however, I was still left with two groups of 8 each! (The second group dismissed a couple hirelings to drop themselves down to 6.)

Game over.

More to the point, virtually all the heroes had leveled up a bit using the initial budget and were mostly in the level 3-4 range. They cut through almost every encounter like it was tissue paper, bashing goblins down two or three at a time. None of the treasures or experience were adequate to satisfy seasoned explorers, especially after being split between so many shares.

I could have just started stacking extra hit points on the goblins to "make them a challenge", but I feel like scaling encounters to level defeats the whole purpose of leveling characters being a free choice. I gave the option of harder or easier targets, and the group consensus was to play it safe. If you want to outclass the encounter, you should have the right to outclass the encounter (and complain about the low-level treasure). Hopefully the personnel assigned to future missions will adjust up or down to fit the challenges, or vice versa.

I've been looking for options to speed up the rate of play. First, I think I'm going to switch from the book rules to the "cyclical initiative" method used last summer by Walley rather than rolling round by round. That will allow everyone to make a single initiative roll and stick to it for the entire battle. The only slight complication is that some initiative bonuses (like Battle Casting) are situational, so they might go away during subsequent rounds.

Second, I think anything in tight tunnels could be fought abstractly based on fixed marching formation, rather than by setting up miniatures. Anyone in front gets to attack without restrictions; anyone in the second rank can use a spear, polearm, missile, or magic; anyone in the third row can only use magic. Deeper rows are buffers, healers, and reserves. (All ranks reverse if ambushed from behind.) This is the way that lots of groups in the classic 80s era played D&D. I like the strategy of having to plan marching order and then rearrange it between fights to adjust for wounds.

January 10, Caudex Annales 70 AUP
On reports of spies and other area threats, the gathered heroes at Balewood Keep elected to form two search parties and split off to explore regions to the east along the road, and to the south beyond the river. Team A (shaman, explorer, thief, spellsword, paladin, nightblade, bladedancer) took along the exuberant Sir Wilrick (a 2nd level fighter) back to the goblin caves, and Team B headed down into the riverside marshes.

Team A discovered multiple entrances into the caves, and elected to take the high entrance rather than the brush-obscured one. The entry point was a natural chamber where the party encountered and brutally attacked a bearskin rug, baffling the cave's occupying ogre who defended his bedclothes with great valor but little success. Multiple Choking Grasp spells from the spellsword levitated him unhappily in the center of the room, while the rest of team gave him the pinata treatment. Searching the room turned up a collection of treasures and a passage into the goblins' maze of passages. After dispatching the guards in the room above (from behind) and crashing a large party in the common room, the team kicked open the door to the chieftain's quarters and left nothing standing. The chieftain himself fell to a serious mauling from a lion-form druid.

A thorough search of the room turned up the goblins' treasures (a chalice and tapestry) and the following note written in the goblin language, which was sent back to the realms of Isigwold (the forest-river region of most player domains) for analysis.

Meanwhile, Team B scoped out the woods south of the keep, where torches had been observed by night. Working back upriver after crossing at a boggy ford, the party's invisible scout discovered a camp of several poorly equipped soldiers with tents and bedrolls. After deploying a bard bellowing bar songs to serve as a distraction for patrols, the camp was broken into two parts and crushed in order. Even a heavy spear formation couldn't dent magical armor, and technology proved more than a match for raw numbers. This yielded another missive, again seeming to indicate that the camp had little or nothing to do with a direct threat against the keep.

Casualties
Sir Wilrick: Mortally wounded, survived after treatment but lost a severed hand

Treasure and Experience: Group A
Coins: 725.9 gp (1126 cp, 590 sp, 115 ep, 548 gp, 2 pp)
Artworks: Silver chalice (90 gp), Gold-threaded tapestry (900 gp)
Magical Items: 6 arrows, 1 potion, magic scroll (cure light wounds, hold person)

Total nonmagical treasure value: 1715.9 gp
Gold per share: 1715.9/4 = 429 gp

Note: Three heroes each took a magical item in lieu of a share, and Sir Wilrick voluntarily declined compensation.

Kills: 1 ogre (140 xp), 1 goblin chief (65 xp), 21 goblins (105 xp)

Total experience from nonmagical treasure: 1715.9 xp
Total experience from kills: 310 xp
Total experience: 2026 xp
Total experience per member: 2026/8 = 253 xp (127 xp for henchmen)

Treasure and Experience: Group B
Coins: 35 gp (321 cp, 270 sp)

Total nonmagical treasure value: 35 gp

Kills: 1 graverobber captain (20 xp), 1 sergeant (10 xp), 8 spearman (80 xp), 2 longbowmen (20 xp)

Total experience from nonmagical treasure: 35 xp
Total experience from kills: 130 xp
Total experience: 165 xp
Total experience per member: 165/6 = 28 xp (14 for henchmen)

Reclaiming Ruins

In a previous post, I mentioned different types of ruins that can be found in each hex. Most of these are presumably made of crumbling stone that isn't of any intrinsic value. However, they could potentially be used as the raw materials for a new settlement.

If players elect to construct a new urban settlement in the same hex as an existing ruin, then they can "pay" for half the investment cost of the settlement (500 of every 1000 gp) by using stone claimed from the ruins. This works only up until the settlement reaches a class VI market, at which point the ruins have been completely stripped of useful stone.

If the ruins are of a military structure (one that gives a morale bonus), then there is a second option: rebuilding the military structure itself. A Crumbling Keep can be rebuilt as a keep, a Forsaken Outpost as a large tower, and an Empty Tower as a small tower. This reduces the cost of that structure by 50%. This stacks multiplicatively with any other construction discounts. For example, a cleric with loyal builders would pay only 80% of 50% of 50%, or 20%, of the normal cost.

Height And Weight References

The core rules for ACKS don't include tables for generating either height or weight values, although these fields appear on the standard character sheets. The value of height isn't particularly important, and you can pick whatever you like. The weight of a player character, however, has important implications for the encumbrance of any horse.

The table below gives base weight values for each race, and (if desired) a representative random range for heights. I've adapted it from Dan Proctor's Advanced Edition Companion. Weights are given in "stone", a medieval unit equal to roughly 10 pounds.

Feel free to modify the heights within reason; for example, it's fine if you want to play a Tolkien-esque tall elf sub-race ("high elf") instead of a shorter classic D&D elf. You can still be magically light in weight (e.g., Legolas walking over the fallen snow at Caradhras.)

Each point of strength bonus or penalty should modify the weight (and height) by the same amount. So a human with a -2 STR adjustment would have a weight of 18-2=16.

Race	Weight (st)	Height	F Adj
Human	18	5'6"+2d6"	-4
Elf	10	4'8"+2d4"	-3
Dwarf	15	3'8"+1d6"	-2
Gnome	8	3'4"+1d4"	-1
Saurian	25	6'0"+2d6"	0

Notes:

1. Dwarves and gnomes aren't naturally suited to riding horses, and usually prefer other mounts. Dwarves ride sturdy but slow mules, and gnomes ride oversize burrowing animals (giant badgers, ferrets, or weasels). With the Riding proficiency, however, they can also adapt to handling horses.


2. Saurians (i.e., "Thrassian gladiators") are generally poor riders and few horses will accept them. They typically ride in carts. With the Riding proficiency they can also ride on heavy horses, although they should probably only be able to ride on a particular horse that has been acclimated to them.


3. The final "F Adj" table is for a more idealized model of female body proportions of the sort you see in (*ahem*) certain fantasy art. If this modifier is applied to weight and height, however, it should also be applied to the Strength attribute, down to a minimum of 3 (which might in turn change the bonus/penalty and further reduce weight!) For fighter classes, I'd just ignore it entirely; trained female body-builders aren't skinny waifs. For other classes it's reasonable but entirely optional, due to being a serious penalty to melee abilities.

Green Pass Campaign: Places Of Note

A shorter guide to some of the notable locations of the world of Proxima. See the maps I posted last fall for an introduction!

Proxima

The world of Proxima is a fantastical counterpart to historical Earth, populated by refugees from the cataclysm's of Earth's own mytho-history: the lost civilizations of Atlantis, Hyperborea, Lemuria, and other fallen and lost cities of distant antiquity. It has a single mega-continent, surrounded by the vast expanse of the Panthalassic Ocean. The ocean waves are scoured by treacherous hurricane gales, so the ocean coasts are barren and inhospitable. Most habitable land is along inland seas and plains surrounded by spectacular mountain ranges that divide the world into isolated basins of protected lowland.

Occidental Basin

The westernmost basin of the world, comparable in size to both North and South America combined, is the Occidental Basin. At the north end, it terminates in a large bay called the Inland Channel, controlled by the Sea-Kingdom of Durnovar. Thousands of miles to the south, it bends through desert to the autocratic city-state of Fuegia, facing the tropical Meridi Sea in the very heart of the world. To the west, over the coastal mountains, lies the Panthallasic Ocean. To the east, over the Great Barrier Range, lies the dark and forbidding expanse of the Boreal Basin.

Boreal Basin

This totally landlocked region is arid and desolate, home to the fallen Hyperborean Empire and its ruined sand-swept cities of Thule and Nerigos. Powerful Thulian and Nerigolish sorcerors and warlords called the “Undying” vie for control of the region using unnatural armies of magically engineered beastmen: orcs, goblins, and other warped imitations of the natural races. Their constant infighting – and the geographical protection of the mountains – has allowed Durnovar to hold its tenuous position on the continental mainland despite numerical inferiority.

Chukchi

Population: 3,000,000

Market: Class I

This distant city-state lies far to the west, hundreds of miles past the lands of Cascadia, in the scattered archipelagos of Beringia. Directly to the south are the remnants of the sunken cities of Atlantis. Chukchi is home to a noble northern people, and has a culture comparable to the Sino-Russian regions of Earth. It is home to exotic arctic beasts like mammoths and saber-tooth cats, and features great temples and centers of peaceful learning.

Vinlend (Nation)

Population: 4,500,000 (human and halfling)

A large central island in the Inland Channel at the north end of the Occidental Basin, Vinlend is inhabited by fishing and farming communities with a culture comparable to medieval Scandanavia. Proximity to the sea helps to maintain a temperate climate. The northern end of the island features highlands fingered with bays and fjords, and the southern end is grassy and open. At the southern tip is the large city of Durnovar, imperial capital of all lawful northern realms.

Durnovar (City)

Population: 300,000 (mostly Vinlender human, some Atlantean nobles)

Market: Class I

The imperial capital of the Sea-Kingdom of Durnovar, centrally located on the Inland Channel seaboard. Durnovar itself occupies the lowest point of Vinlend, and is the largest city of the entire Occidental Basin. The king and archbishop of Durnovar exercise temporal and spiritual authority over all the human habitations on the seaboard, except for the pirate principalities far to the south. Despite naval superiority, its military influence doesn't extend far beyond the coastal lands.

Lockhaven (Port City)

Population: 12,000

Market: Class IV

The gateway to the western lands of Cascadia, Lockhaven is still a young port of rough-hewn buildings populated mostly by rugged wilderness explorers and adventurers. The wilderlands beyond are little known and fraught with unknown perils.

Elysion (Territory)

Population: 175,000 (human and elven)

Durnovar's most secure mainland holdings are in the woodlands of Elysion. The Great Barrier Range to the east provide a natural defense against invaders, and the Isigflod River allows for commerce and easy transportation into the heartlands.

Straddleport (City)

Population: 28,000 (human)

Market: Class II

Straddleport, located on both sides of the Isigflod's mouth, is Durnovar's foothold on the Elysion mainland. All commerce with Vinlend passes through this port. It is managed jointly by a council of Lords-Proprietor, generally consisting of high-ranking noblemen and clergymen loyal to Durnovar.

Green Pass (Region)

Population: 90,000 (human and halfling)

Following the Isigflod River to its source in the mountains, an explorer will reach the strategic chokepoint of Green Pass, a lowered and widened portion of the range which includes several natural points of passage between the Occidental and Boreal Basins. This region has only become settled in the last 70 years, since it was subdued and occupied by Durnovar. Its primary trade market is Centerpost, about 10 miles west of the mountains, which servers the militar outposts at Footman's Notch and further down into the Balewood.

Centerpost (Town)

Population: 3000

Market: Class III

Despite having a small population, the market town of Centerpost serves as a military depot for fortresses and towers in the region.

Footman's Notch (Fortress)

Population: 700

The only road leading between the Occidental and Boreal basins passes through the mountains at Footman's Notch, a high road with a deep ravine one one side and a sheer cliffwall on the other. Just around a tight bend, the great wall of Footman's Notch is built clear out over the ravine and sinks into the mountain walls on either side. The central double gates through the wall are guarded by many companies of elite soldiers, and stonework fortifications overlook the trail leading up to the gate along the rising trail to the east. Durnovar is determined to hold this passage at all costs.

Balewood Keep (Fortress)

Population: 300

Market: Class VI (but Class IV for military goods)

This frontier fortress lies just a few miles down the road from the ruined city of Umeskelion, site of the most recent defeat of Durnovar's expeditionary forces. Though sturdily built, all personnel defending the fortress have been on high alert due to the fear of either a direct attack or an infiltration by enemy agents.

Player-Controlled Realms (Region)

Population: Varies

Player realms are initially located midway between Straddleport and Centerpost, along the forested branches and arms of the Isigflod River. This region is lightly populated, but has good access to river traders and plenty of room for expansion. Elven realms are located deeper in the woods, and dwarven citadels can still be found in the mountain borders.

Domain Generation Revisions

After some consideration, I've decided to revise and expand the house rules for creating and using the domain-level map. Here's what I have in mind:

1. All domains still retain a central river, but the terrain of the river hexes should now be whatever terrain type is optimal for that particular race. Humans still get grassland as their optimal terrain, elves get forest, dwarves (and gnome Tricksters) get hills, and saurian (aka, "Thrassian") gladiators get swamp. The surrounding terrain is still determined by the world map, and the roll to see the terrain on both sides is rising, level, or descending is still made as usual.

2. Since I can't think of any other way to solve the problem of diluting a domain's land value, it is now possible to divide a ruler's domains into multiple estates. This is an optional rule that can be ignored if desired. The land value of each estate is calculated independently, and its population is tracked independently. An estate's population is assumed to be divided evenly over all hexes in that estate. By default, your starting domain is made up of a single estate, the ruler's "personal estate".

At any time, you may divide an estate into two separate smaller estates. New construction of towers or secondary strongholds may expand an existing estate, or create a new estate based around those structures. Once an estate is created, it must be tracked separately from that point on. It can never be recombined with another estate (this could lead to various rule exploits affecting population). Once a family settles in an estate, it cannot be moved to any different estate except by subdivision.

Monthly population gains and losses may be distributed in any way desired over any estates within the domain, but the extra social bonus from ruins always applies to the estate that contains it.

Because a witch needs to rusticate now and then!

3. By default, estates are owned by the domain's ruler. A ruler may gift an estate to a hero of that domain, establishing the estate as the personal property of that hero. In order to do this, the ruler must first create a manor house, a civilian structure that may be as large as desired, but must be equal in size to at least a longhouse. The hero then becomes a lord (or lady) of the estate, and runs a small staff at the manor house as a member of the gentry.

The monthly cost of upkeep for a manor house is 10% of the cost of the structure, reflecting the expense of food and drink, household servants, and grounds-keeping. This monthly expense counts as though it were "income" for the manor's lord, for the sake of calculating experience gains, at the end of any month when the lord is not doing anything else. (Even if the lord doesn't get this experience, the expenses must still be paid.) A lord can never be replaced while alive; if you want to create a new manorial lord, you'll need to create a new estate. The manor house itself, however, may be enlarged at any time.

Example: Robart Cradley, a knight of the realm, is to be gifted the small estate of Crantham by his domain's lord. An 8000 gp manor house (Dinton Abbey) is constructed for Sir Robart -- now Lord Crantham! -- and will cost the domain 800 gp each month in maintenance costs. Since Sir Robart is 1st level, his experience threshold is 25 gp. The challenges of managing his household staff grants him 800-25 = 775 exp of administrative experience every month.

Revenues and expenses for all estates are still combined each month, for ease of calculation, since (unlike full vassals with their own domains) an estate's lord is always a perfectly loyal hero (i.e., a player character). However, certain events (like a group of assassins) might strike at a manor's lord at the same time that they also make attempts on full vassals.